Season 2, Episode 4

Are You Authentic?

Templates abound in marketing. While they can be a useful starting point, they also encourage a society of sameness (aka “corporate Memphis”). Now that almost everything has moved online, how do you authentically sound like yourself?

Molly Kathy Betsy

About this Episode

Templates abound in marketing. While they can be a useful starting point, they also encourage a society of sameness (aka “corporate Memphis”). Now that almost everything has moved online, how do you authentically sound like yourself?

People... Products... Places

In this episode, we mention the following:


Molly McBeath  0:09  
Having an authentic voice for your business is an important way to stand out from your competitors, but many of the shortcuts and pieces of advice you see online produce the opposite result, leaving you sounding just like everyone else. Welcome to Yes But However, a podcast about marketing, business, and real life. I’m Molly McBeath, and I’m joined as usual by my co-hosts Kathy Fealy and Betsy Muse. Today we’re going to talk about the value of not faking it till you make it. Today’s topic is authenticity.

Betsy Muse  0:43  
In our business we hear about authenticity a lot.

Molly McBeath  0:46  
Oh yes,

Kathleen Fealy  0:46  
we don’t see it all the time.

Betsy Muse  0:51  
We see a lot of people trying to fake authenticity, though.

Kathleen Fealy  0:55  
And we see a lot of people sounding alike, whether they mean to or not. So I think authenticity is a good topic for today’s podcast.

Molly McBeath  1:05  
It’s an excellent topic and it’s, it’s gonna be more than one podcast, I think, because it’s a big topic.

Betsy Muse  1:12  
It is a big topic, and I think that one of the things, those of us who’ve been on this earth long enough to have paid attention to advertising and marketing over the years, before the internet, you didn’t know if you were sounding like everybody else out there. And it wasn’t that you weren’t being authentic. It’s just, you weren’t seeing, you know, 10s of 1000s of other marketers out there saying exactly the same thing. Not that I’m paying attention to 10s of 1000s but we all tend to say the same thing.

Kathleen Fealy  1:46  
I think it actually happens for two reasons. One, I think people lose the authentic voice when they are trying to portray an image of what they think they should be versus who they are. And the other problem with authenticity, I think, is that when businesses are scared. And like in this particular environment because we’re in the middle of the pandemic and there is some money problems going on in a lot of people’s lives, etc, that they look for quick answers, and I can’t tell you the number of emails I’ve received that have been offering businesses, your email template where you just fill in the words for the blanks, and I’m thinking where, and how many ways can this go wrong. So I think authenticity. We have two different directions we could actually take this discussion.

Molly McBeath  2:42  
Yeah, there’s the, the issue of sounding like everyone else, and, and then just how do you find your own voice, what to pay attention to. I think a lack of authenticity, or at least for me where authenticity comes from, is if you are really clear on your goals and your business values. And I think if you don’t have that, then it’s really hard to be authentic. So, and that’s deep work that people need to do. You know, you might think, ‘well, I’m just selling widgets.’ But no one sells widgets, you’re, you’re selling a solution to somebody’s problem and how you sell that and why you’re selling it and how you came to that solution are all part of why this is important to you, because you could have sold a different kind of widget, or you could have not sold widgets at all and you could work at Starbucks or, you know, whatever. So sometimes people just haven’t done that kind of work, they haven’t thought that they needed to. And then you get into a situation like the pandemic and all of a sudden, your values are what distinguishes you from everyone else selling a similar widget. And I don’t mean to make this all about e-commerce, because I don’t think it is. I mean, the same applies to SaaS and services and charities and they’re all of that. What do you guys think? Did I go too far on a tangent? You both look at me like, ‘where’s she going with this?’

Kathleen Fealy  4:24  
Well, well, Molly, I agree with you, partly, I think that, I think that you did take it on a tangent, but I think that authenticity is also, I think the problem people have is that they forget who they’re talking to. Like, I think in the past, I used to like when I would write emails, especially, I would notice or my website and I’m still guilty of this because I’m still redoing parts of my website and various parts of my marketing, and I wrote a lot of it, so that I sounded in a particular way. I wanted to sound authoritative, I wanted to sound knowledgeable, I wanted to sound like I could handle, you know, different size projects, etc, etc. Then after a while, I started writing more like I was talking to somebody, or I was doing a lot more videos, and the voice of my copy changed. And what I discovered was that it was connecting better with people, and I would start writing some emails that sounded more like I was just talking to somebody and writing them the email, and I would get more responses and more open rates, all of a sudden, so I think it’s learning enough to have confidence in what you have to say but also trusting your audience to talk to them and expect that they’re going to be open to hearing what you have to say. Betsy?

Betsy Muse  6:09  
Because I’m looking at both of you going, ‘what the hell are you talking about?’ No, I’m joking. We’ve, Molly and I have both talked about how we can be literal. And I’m pretty literal when I’m thinking about authenticity here, and I really do think it’s just for me, it’s, it’s knowing who I am and what I bring to the table and not trying to sound like everyone else, you know, if you’re a marketer you offer a lot of the same or similar services. And they, they offer people the same or similar benefits, but I just, I know what my ‘why’ is, I know why I do what I want to do, and I go back to, you know, I’ve been in business for a while, I’ve been in banking, financial services industry, and everywhere I’ve worked my you know my ‘why’ is I want to see people succeed. I want to see people build their businesses, I wanted to see people get elected, I wanted to see people get that home loan you know that they came to me for. So, it’s, that’s my ‘why’, and what for me is important is for it to come across in my copy, in what I write, and in how I communicate with prospects and with clients, and I don’t want it to sound phony. I really do want my clients to succeed. I think that for me, it’s what’s driven this home for me is seeing the people who are doing it right, and Joanna–

Molly McBeath  7:56  
What does it look like when it’s done right? 

Betsy Muse  8:26  
Well, you know, we’re all part of Joanna Wiebe’s community, and I joined one of her courses. This is just an example and for me it’s, it’s also an example of integrity. But this is a running theme through everything that I’ve ever been associated with her. But I had joined a course, it was called the Copy Link, it doesn’t exist anymore. When you buy into the course when I bought into the course it was lifetime access. Well, it lasted for a year. And so, all of a sudden they made the announcement that the course was going away, but I missed the email that they did send that said instead we were getting a better course that was more expensive for free. But I kept, I went back to, I kept getting these emails for this course that I hadn’t realized I was being given for free. And when I messaged them to say you know, ‘I think I’ve been given access to something that I’m not entitled to,’ they responded (unintelligible) they responded to me ‘no, we’re giving the people who are in Copy Link this course.’ And so we got these boot camps and all this really great stuff. And, you know, that to me was just an example and she’s always been that way. And for the past, I’ve only known her for six years. But it’s just been a running theme for her. Just high level of integrity. And so that’s, you know, for me, that you know, it, it’s an authentic quality for her, it is not put on, it isn’t just she honored her guarantees, she goes above and beyond that. And that was seeing that example, allowed me to see how, you know, I want my values displayed as well.

Molly McBeath  9:55  
Is now the time that we, we bring up bro marketing because it’s everywhere right now, and I gotta admit, it’s authentic to some brands.

Kathleen Fealy  10:08  
I think you need to define it.

Molly McBeath  10:10  
Well yeah and it’s do I have a good definition of it. It’s one of those, I know it when I see it, it’s just the, what I think of is, and it doesn’t have to be just, it’s not a male thing in my opinion, although it does have that male associated term with it but a very very casual kind of oversharing, lots of GIFS or JIFS, whichever you prefer.

Betsy Muse  10:40  
It’s posing in front of a luxury vehicle or a boat or a private plane. And, you know, trying to show that you’re super successful. And people should do what you do, right, if they just follow you, they can be successful too.

Molly McBeath  10:59  
Right, and yeah you can presenting yourself as an authority because you have such and such of a life style. Yeah.

Betsy Muse  11:09  
And Molly’s right, it isn’t just a male thing. I’ve seen women walking through their homes with their, you know, their laptops or their phones like showing off their homes, just by walking through them, but they’re talking breathlessly to you about, you know this program that they have.

Kathleen Fealy  11:27  
I actually heard, I was in a hair salon one day where somebody came in and started to do a presentation to the other stylists that were there. And later on, she went into a corner and was talking, as I told you in the past I’m a great eavesdropper. And she admitted that she rented a very very expensive car so she could drive to the front of the salon. So everybody believed that if they went with her marketing program that they would have the same kind of car that she did, but it was a rented car, the luxury car that she basically got for her business sales meetings, so that when people looked out they would see that she was driving this very very expensive car and think that was hers.

Betsy Muse  12:21  
And, see, I would just park my heap around the corner.

Molly McBeath  12:26  
Well yeah, that is when, whenever I see that, when somebody says, ‘well, you know, if you just do what I recommend, then you can have this.’ And I hate that. It just rubs me the wrong way instantly.

Kathleen Fealy  12:39  
So do you think that people are more drawn to the bro marketing, the aspirational marketing, more than they are to the authentic marketing?

Molly McBeath  12:51  
There’s so much bro marketing out there, it must work on some people. Falls completely flat for me, but some people, yeah, really must appreciate the, that aspirational aspect of it.

Kathleen Fealy  13:08  
That’s probably true Molly because if you think about it, I don’t like negative political ads, but they obviously work or they wouldn’t still be being used so much.

Molly McBeath  13:19  
So what, what, what, who, how does this appeal to people?

Betsy Muse  13:25  
I think sometimes it’s really hard for us to know when it doesn’t appeal to us. We might need to look at psychological studies which I’m not prepared to talk about today. But I think that it’s, you know, I, it’s hard for me to pinpoint it because I don’t you know that, to me that just looks so fake and phony. And I’m not at all enticed by people who are like that. I am not enticed to buy into their program or anything like that. And so it’s, you know, it’s hard for me to understand why others would.

Kathleen Fealy  14:12  
I think Betsy that it’s about having the, I do think that the inspiration or the aspiration is there.

Betsy Muse  14:21  
But the but the bro marketing really is, it’s just, it’s just fake. It’s fake. They, you know, when you’re standing in front of a rented car, when you’re standing in front of you know walking through a home that you’re renting, there’s nothing wrong with renting a home. It’s renting a mansion and pretending like it’s yours. Like, you got it by following this program, and other people can get it too. That’s what’s wrong with it. There’s nothing wrong with sitting in a jet that doesn’t belong to you but pretending like it belongs to you, or pretending like, you know.

Kathleen Fealy  15:02  
If you follow these three steps, you too can have a private jet.

Molly McBeath  15:08  
And the lie is bigger than that though, the lie is, I have no problems. My life is easy. And of course that’s a lie. That’s a lie for every human being on the planet. Nobody’s life is easy. Everybody’s got problems, there’s always something. I think that’s where, for me it falls so flat is that they are not being honest about the other difficulties in your life and, and this comes back to your Kathy about the importance of connecting to your audience. 

Betsy Muse  15:34  
There are people in our industry who, you know when, when we share our successes within the marketing community. It isn’t always bro marketing, it isn’t bragging. It’s just, it’s just a way to help others see there is a path, because I know that there are also people who, they do this but they share their difficulties, and they talk about what didn’t go right. One of the things that I find motivating and, and so this is sometimes when people are talking about what they’ve accomplished, they’re not bragging, but they are kind of giving a framework or a guide, guidelines or a guideposts because there are some copywriters and marketers that I have been in groups with, and I see I see them talk about the things that they’ve accomplished and the good things that are happening in their lives because of that, and I know where they were two years ago. And I’m where they were two years ago, and I see that they’re ahead of me now, and I, so I feel like I’m, we’re tracking together. And it motivates me because I see the positive things that they’ve accomplished in their businesses, and in their lives. And I’m like, ‘okay, that’s it, that’s my next step, that’s where I’m going.’ So I don’t feel like that, that qualifies as bro marketing. Yes they’re talking about a second home, yes they’re talking about they did this, but as Molly mentioned before they also will come in and say, you know we’ve had some health issues or, or, you know, had something happen in the business didn’t quite go right so there’s a balance, there’s a balance there. But I do feel like it’s authentic.

Kathleen Fealy  16:59  
I also think if you can be authentic in your business, it’s just easier because you’re being you. 

Betsy Muse  17:35  
One thing that I was going to mention is that in this business you know obviously we’re, we’re all in a couple of the same groups, Slack groups and maybe Facebook groups, I know Molly you’re, you’re not on Facebook but–

Molly McBeath  17:59  
I’m a holdout.

Betsy Muse  18:01  
You’re the holdout, the lone holdout. But we, we constantly see new copywriters come in or new marketers come in and it’s like, you know, ‘I need to sound like an agency, I need to sound like’ you know, and, you know, ‘can I say we if it’s only me’ and don’t get, don’t try to sound like you’re more than you are because people come, they hire, people hire contractors. You don’t have to be an agency, if they want an agency they’ll hire an agency, right, don’t try to force yourself to be something you aren’t.

Kathleen Fealy  18:37  
I think people have gotten much more informal, and because of the informality I think everybody should have permission now to sound more like themselves. I think one of the challenges with authenticity though is if you are representing a brand, you have to make sure that the personality of the brand is understood, and the values of the brand is understood, because as an individual you might have a slightly different personality but if you’re going to be writing about that brand. I can see with that still needs style guides, which Molly you often talk about, you know, having some kind of a style guide to say what you can do. I tell my clients, you have to have a social media guide so that people just don’t say anything because you are representing a brand, but I do think that people can tell when a brand represents the values of that brand or that product.

Molly McBeath  19:38  
So now I’m going to say that I don’t think I was that far off in that you, that authenticity, it always comes back to you are you representing your values in the way that you present yourself or your business and what your what you choose to have as your voice for the business.

Betsy Muse  19:59  
I think where I struggle is that for me, authenticity isn’t something you choose. But I also understand when we’re, when we’re building a business, when we’re building a brand, and it’s especially if it isn’t just a one-person business, then you are choosing values, you are choosing. So I think that’s, I think that’s where I struggle is that when I say I was being literal, excuse me is that I think that that’s not something you choose. So I think that we have to distinguish between personal authenticity and brand authenticity.

Kathleen Fealy  20:40  
I think that’s a good point that there is a difference between personal authenticity and brand authenticity, and you’re right, there is like a, there seems to be with the brand much more of a choice, so I would also argue individually sometimes people make choices as to how they want to represent themselves,

Betsy Muse  20:59  
Especially if you are the brand.

Molly McBeath  21:04  
But I also think it’s interesting what Betsy was saying about struggling to write an email and feeling like it was too stiff. Is that how you’re phrasing it, Betsy? And that that sort of an internal sense of that you’re not coming from an authentic place which might not be that you’re trying that you’re lying, it might be that you’re not comfortable with, you know, if you’re writing for because you’re an employee of a business and so you’re and you’re writing for the brand’s voice, that you’re not as familiar with it as as you need to be to write from that voice and that could take time. So it’s not necessarily that you’re not being honest. So I want to make that distinction that it could be that you just have to, you know, also to go back to the idea of, of, in the old days when you got a pair of jeans, and they were really uncomfortable for the first month or something until you really wore them in. And then, or for those people who iron them, God, who irons jeans?

Kathleen Fealy  22:12  
The same people that iron sheets, which I’ve never understood.

Molly McBeath  22:17  
I don’t like to iron. But, but I see the value in it in that it made your jeans more comfortable because I remember buying those jeans. And so, yes, there’s a sense of, you need to just get comfortable in something. And that doesn’t mean you’re not lying, but you might not yet be authentic with it. But on the other hand though if, if it is something that you should be able to represent authentically and you find that you’re not, then that’s something that I think you need to look at is like well so this is this discordance is an internal sign that, that things are off, and why are they off right and it’s really how I want to move forward.

Betsy Muse  23:02  
And I think the email situation that that Kathy and I have referenced. That’s really a learned thing, especially for those of us who did grow up, you know, that’s the, there was a certain way that you communicated in business, and I think it’s, it’s not as you said dishonest, but it isn’t necessarily authentic, but it also isn’t necessarily our fault, because it’s what we were how we were trained to write business emails or letters. And so that’s just a little bit of unlearning and maybe just spending some time writing our communications as if we’re writing to a friend, rather than a business colleague.

Kathleen Fealy  23:48  
Okay so I have a new question for both of you. So, if you’re trying to tell someone, it’s like someone’s like, not sure how to be authentic, or what they represent, per se, because say they are themselves, and a brand, or they are trying to figure out what the brand for their company should be. What advice would you give them?

Betsy Muse  24:13  
I think that the advice that I would give them is, there are all sorts of free resources out there, and that they, and inexpensive resources out there that offer exercises that they can do, if they’re solo they can do it themselves or they can do as a team, that help them determine their mission and their values, and you know how they’re going to present themselves, and it is part of branding and I don’t consider myself a branding expert, but I have been through some of these exercises, and some of them are fun. It’s as simple as picking a playlist, or, you know what is, what what are the songs that represent your brand, what are the colors, you know, going on Pinterest and creating, I think Kira Hug suggests designing a living room that represents your brand. So some of the exercises are fun, and it can give you a way to look into and maybe visualize the values that you want to portray.

Kathleen Fealy  25:29  
I was once in a class where someone said, or a business meeting, where they had somebody who was like a brand expert and she had an exercise where other people in the room wrote down three actors or actresses that you reminded them of. As far as your, your business or NGO, and it was very interesting because people really saw people in very different ways.

Molly McBeath  25:58  
I haven’t heard of that one before. I was thinking also about the same idea of choosing characters from movies or literature or something that you feel like, would, would represent your brand in some way and that their voice somehow is similar. But on the other hand, what’s been an interesting and helpful exercise for me sometimes, if I’m struggling, is to choose something that is the opposite of the brand’s voice, and write whatever it is that I need to write in that voice, and just, I don’t know there’s something about like just getting all the crap out, and it’s like ‘oh it’s definitely not this, it’s definitely not Black Sabbath,’ you know, something like that. And I don’t know, it sort of gets my giggles out and, and brings up my energy a little bit and it clarifies for me like, ‘oh, but you know there is this one aspect of Black Sabbath that I never put together with yoga’ or something. But the other thing I think is also knowing who you’re speaking to, it’s that idea of how, of connection again. If you don’t know who you’re talking to it’s really hard to sound authentic. Really, really hard.

Kathleen Fealy  27:22 
And sometimes you have to write multiple vehicles for different people. You can’t just write for everybody, because it’s going to sound like you, it’s going to sound like that email template that I saw where it was like mostly the same thing and it was like insert this word or insert a word or phrase here, that is, you know, inspirational, insert this word or phrase here that describes your business, I mean it was like, oh my god–

Molly McBeath  25:53
The Mad Libs of marketing.

Kathleen Fealy  25:55
Yeah, the Mad Libs of marketing. I honestly could see that go wrong in so many ways and I think I’ve gotten some of those emails that people actually have done that because sometimes I’m reading them going, what?

Molly McBeath  28:10  
(unintelligible) Anyone ever tries too hard, you know, spends a lot of time coming up with a distinctive voice when it’s not necessary? Because I think I see that too where people are trying so hard to sound different, that they just get kind of really far out there, And it becomes just, weird.

Betsy Muse  28:30  
Yeah, yeah, I’ve seen that too, especially when you know, the the more casual writing became, you know it came in vogue, and people just, ‘I want to sound casual, I want to sound punchy.’ You know that that just. And so they the they use slang they wouldn’t normally use they use, you know, yeah, I’ve seen that too. I wanted to go back to what you said Molly, and I know that we’re probably pressing time here, but you mentioned that you sound more authentic, when you’re writing to your audience, and to the people who aren’t aware of how we as marketers and copywriters do our work that might sound a little counterintuitive, but–

Molly McBeath  29:21  
Yeah, that’s too good.

Betsy Muse  29:23  
But that’s exactly what we do. And that is what allows our, or one of the things that allows our authentic voice to shine. Because if our goal is to help a certain group of people, that’s part of our mission, then, if, if we’re talking to those people, and we have them, you know, top of mind as we’re writing, then we’re going to sound more authentic. It brings it out of us in a more authentic voice, I just want to get that out.

Molly McBeath  29:55  
It was good advice in any kind of writing to just think about a friend or relative or someone that you want to tell your story to, whatever it is, and picture them in your mind or even put a photo up of them and start writing and this is how I would if I was sitting down with this person, this is what I would say. And that, that is an important component of authenticity because you’re filtering so much by making that decision of who you think you’re, you’re talking to. I mean you’re going to have such a very different conversation with your grandmother versus your neighbor versus your 10 year old. Um, and, and they can all be very authentic conversations, but, um, you know if you have the neighbor conversation with your 10 year old, your 10 year old’s not gonna find that to be a very authentic conversation.

Kathleen Fealy  30:55  
I think that’s fairly interesting Molly because it makes me also think about how if you’re really thinking about the person you, we always talk about voice of customers like words or phrases that if you were like if you were eavesdropping, my favorite thing as you all know, if you’re eavesdropping, what would that person, what words would they be using, etc so that also can help bring in the authenticity. I even found the other day I was talking to a client, and I needed to know who their three main competitors were, and they were thinking and thinking. I’m like, ‘okay, if you were at the job site what three companies do you think might show up?’ And all of a sudden, they knew their three competitors. You know, it was, it was the way you phrased it. And I think voice of customer is probably a whole nother topic that we could do in a whole other episode but I do think that if you, when you’re writing a letter or if you’re doing a video to someone, etc. If you use phrases that connect with those people, that is also helping to build the authenticity, I think as long as it’s something that you do believe resonates.

Molly McBeath  32:14  
And you know if you’re using a vocabulary that’s not familiar to you and it’s not your real vocabulary, your audience is going to know. No one can fake it for very long. Not well.

Kathleen Fealy  32:26  
That sounds like when I’m trying to talk sports with my husband and I can’t because I know very little about sports. My husband can quote stats, and, you know, histories of who won this with what and what was the weather and did it influence this.

Molly McBeath  32:45  
That is authenticity, all right. You’re passionate about something that’s another thing that makes it authentic when you’re passionate about something, and then you are definitely coming from a place of authenticity.

Kathleen Fealy  32:57  
That’s a great point and that’s a great way to like if people don’t know how to sound authentic just be, be yourself and be passionate about what you’re talking about because it will come through as authentic.

Molly McBeath  33:08  
Yeah, I hadn’t thought about that before.

Kathleen Fealy  33:12  
Nice going, Molly.

Molly McBeath  33:13  
Thank you. Every now and then I pull one out of a hat.

Kathleen Fealy  33:19  
Anybody have anything else they want to add?

Betsy Muse  33:21  
I’d love to be able to give step by steps, but I just think that, you know, you’re either authentic or you’re not. And the, I think most people know when they’re putting on, you know, putting on an act. But I also think that, you know there is a slight difference between being authentic and finding your voice. And so there are exercises that will help you find your voice and we’ve talked about some of them.

Molly McBeath  33:50  
So that well it does bring up something for me though of: If you feel like you’re not being authentic, I don’t want to discourage people from thinking that that means that you, you’re never going to be authentic, doesn’t mean you’re not going to get there, it means that right now, there’s more information that you’re lacking, you’re, you’re, maybe you don’t know who you’re talking to, that’s usually the biggest one. But it could also be that feeling inauthentic is a form of imposter syndrome. And so, you have to look at that as well, that maybe you’re just that anxiety, in some ways, getting in the way that can that can be what’s going on. And so sometimes you just need to push through this, what, what I’m saying there is, if you sit down and you and you feel really inauthentic about what you’re doing, give it 20 minutes. You might find 20 minutes later that that you found your groove.

Betsy Muse  34:56  
I call it navel gazing, and I don’t, people will say that as a bad thing, I don’t think it’s a bad thing because sometimes you do really have to just be in a quiet place and think, and have a chance to, I mean we’ve all. You know I’ve, my business has been in places where I wasn’t happy with it. And that feigned happiness or enthusiasm. I wasn’t being authentic. It doesn’t mean I was necessarily being dishonest. I was probably being dishonest with myself. But, you know, so I think you’re right, people might not know who they’re talking with, but they also just might not like what they’re doing.

Kathleen Fealy  35:42  
And that’s a whole nother conversation.

Betsy Muse  35:45  
We could go on and on about this for hours so maybe we need to end it here.

Kathleen Fealy  35:50  
I think we’ve been as authentic as we possibly could right now. So we will pick this conversation up on one of our next episodes, and we thank you for listening.

Betsy Muse  36:05  
This has been Yes But However. I’m Betsy Muse with my co-hosts Kathy Fealy and Molly McBeath. This episode was written, edited and produced by the three of us. Our theme music is Tourist in Punta Cana, which is available through Audio Hero. The show’s website where we post show notes, transcripts, and more information about us, can be found at You can contact us through the website or email us at Thanks for listening.

Kathleen Fealy  36:42  
I think we got it. Anything anyone wants to reshift, do, etc.? Oh I forgot to record this. Okay,

Betsy Muse  36:52  
Oh, I saw the record button going. You weren’t going to catch me on that one, I saw that record button going.

Molly McBeath  37:02  
It’s time for the disclaimer. The information, opinions, and recommendations presented on Yes But However are for general information only. Any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. No part of this podcast should be considered professional advice. Any products or services mentioned on this podcast come from our personal experience, and no person or company has paid for a mention or placement. Thanks, and have a great day.

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