Episode 2

The Messaging Mailbox

Marketers get an abundance of marketing emails in their mailbox just like everybody else. What’s different is that we like to tear down those messages and see both the good and the appalling ways people try to connect through email.

YBH Podcast


About this Episode

As marketers we pay close attention to the emails that wind up in our inbox. In this episode, we talk about emails we received during the early months of the pandemic, how well they navigated messaging, and whether they hit their mark.

Aaaand… you’ll see we don’t always agree!

People... Products... Places

In this episode, we mention the following:


Molly McBeath  0:08  

Hey everybody, this is Molly. Kathy Betsy and I all work in marketing, so we’re always interested in how other marketers are messaging for their business, but because the three of us have such different backgrounds, we’ll come from such different perspectives, we sometimes have very different opinions about what good messaging looks like. Also, Kathy is much more diplomatic than I am so there’s that too. Anyway, as professional marketers, we all pay close attention to the messaging that comes into our email inboxes, we’d like to share what we find, and talk about what we like about email, and what we think really doesn’t work and why people listen to this very first installment of the messaging mail bag.


So, Betsy. What do we got in the mail bag.


Betsy Muse  1:04  

What have we got in the mail bag well. We have a wonderful email that I know you and I received Kathy Are you with ActiveCampaign.


Kathleen Fealy  1:14  

I’m not. I use ontraport.


Betsy Muse  1:15  

Okay, well Molly and I are both of Active Campaign, and we received an email, we took issue with it we said, 


Kathleen Fealy  1:23  

You sent it to me, and I, I know exactly why you guys took issue with it. I think this is going to be a perfect example of yes but however,


Betsy Muse  1:34  

Molly why don’t you explain.


Molly McBeath  1:38  

Well, so it’s a it’s a pretty great email from ActiveCampaign as part of their regular communications. This one starts off headline of: webinar and meaning that they are going to, they’re going to give a webinar on this topic. So the heading for this webinar, from ActiveCampaign is the part of your marketing that costs nothing to improve your website, your social media, your Facebook ads, your video scripts, your marketing email, personal email. All of the marketing you do for your business has words. Changing those words cost you nothing but if you do it right, the results are enormous. And then they go on to explain the details of the webinar, etc. For a free webinar to learn the most common copywriting mistakes, how to make every part of your business work better by choosing the right words. And, there was a button, Get your words here.


I was not pleased by this email, 


Betsy Muse  2:40  

Nor was I.


Molly McBeath  2:47  

And it didn’t bother you at all, Kathy.


Kathleen Fealy  2:49  

It didn’t really bother me No, I sort of felt like that way. I want to hear why you guys were bothered by it, because for some try to tell me why, try to persuade me why there’s a problem. And I’ll tell you what I thought.


Betsy Muse  3:04  

Well, first of all, words aren’t free. They’re either gonna cost you money, or they’re gonna cost you time and they can cost you a lot of time. And if you get them wrong. They cost you a lot of money.


Molly McBeath  3:24  

Yeah, I don’t, I feel exactly the same way I don’t understand at all. Why would they. Why would anyone say changing those words costs you nothing that there’s no effort at all in figuring out what are the right words, because that’s, that’s a lot of research that’s a lot of deep thinking, and to say that, you know, just, it makes it implies that anyone could just throw something down, and it’s going to work. And it’s not, and they know that.


Betsy Muse  3:58  

Right. I mean you can get lucky once, maybe even twice, but.


Kathleen Fealy  4:03  

Okay. So,


Betsy Muse  4:06  



Kathleen Fealy  4:07  

because both of you are copywriters trained copywriters by profession. And I will tell you, when the audience does not know. I am a copywriter but I am, I’m still feeling like I am learning the business of being a copywriter, but I have a background in usability the SEO all that stuff, and working with the smaller businesses, trying to help them come up with concepts. So, from a strategy point of view, then people need to improve their conversion rates, and I’m reading the email right now, in front of me, but I think that their audience is mostly small businesses or businesses that may be doing their own marketing and who don’t hire copywriters. And so one of the ways, especially now because there has been a downturn in the economy that people can make a difference to their marketing and ActiveCampaign allows you to test whether things are working or not, is to change words, and it doesn’t cost them anything to do that. They have to give a thought, and I thought the idea was that a webinar that they were offering, was going to go over what the most common mistakes were so maybe they’ll say, you need to consider who your reader is maybe we don’t know that part yet so I wasn’t offended by this. 


Betsy Muse  4:31  

So it’s just a little bit of a bait and switch. It doesn’t cost you anything but we’re going to go over the problems you can add if you get it wrong. 


Kathleen Fealy  5:38  

Yes, and how you can get it better if you do, because even like their little tagline that they use the art for the call to action was, get your words here. A lot of companies use things still like saying submit, or, you know, or something and maybe they’ll say, sign me up, but, you know, get your words here actually ties into the campaign, or the webinar so I just didn’t think it was as much of an issue, but I could see maybe the copywriter who makes her living by writing to be told that your words really have it doesn’t cost anything it can, because we all know we’ve seen good writing.


Molly McBeath  6:14  

Why a usability question, because the very first time I looked at this and that true five second test, I read the headline ‘webinar: the part of your marketing that costs nothing to improve’ and I thought, well, that’s weird. Why would anyone think that a webinar cost nothing to improve.


Kathleen Fealy  6:31  

I would agree with that too. Yeah, when I saw that too, we’d be looking for five second test. I think they were trying to tell you that there was a webinar, but they should at least use different font types or something.


Molly McBeath  6:42  

Right, yeah they didn’t leave it out properly so it was visually obvious that this is the title of the webinar. 


Kathleen Fealy  6:48  



Molly McBeath  6:49  

there was no way that you were going to pick that up until you read it for a while. 


Kathleen Fealy  6:53  



Molly McBeath  6:54  

I didn’t like that, and I also don’t understand those because ActiveCampaign is a large successful company in their industry. Why are they sending me, who is obviously not the audience for this webinar, this email. Probably that ActiveCampaign knows about tagging.


Betsy Muse  7:14  

You would think they would know about list segmentation and yes, they got my career when I signed up. So yeah, I agree with that Molly I think that is as big as they are as successful as they are and as much as they know what they’re doing. They kinda missed on 


Kathleen Fealy  7:30  

this one and this one they did not segment the list that’s for sure. Because they would not have sent it to copywriters. First off, and probably not to people who would have normally had copywriters on staff, etc because changing words at that point they would understand the power of that if they changed the wrong words, not only could it affect their conversion rate but it could affect their visibility in the search engines etc So, but I could see them going and targeting. Like, for the idea of the one reader that I could see it being a small business owner who doesn’t have a lot of money or a marketing team and they need to make changes to help.


Molly McBeath  8:12  

Yeah, I agree with that i, but I also agree with Betsy that this is a bait and switch that they’re not giving the real story, so I still disagree with their perspective, I don’t think they’re being honest with their reader in this instance, but they also yeah they totally should have segmented this.


Betsy Muse  8:32  

Yeah, I mean I can see Kathy’s point. But I still feel that they just a weak, a weak attempt on their part, but we’ll forgive them. I’m still an Active Campaign customer, and I’m not going to close my account or anything. 


Molly McBeath  8:46  

No, no, 


Betsy Muse  8:47  

a great product, and I enjoy using it. So, 


Kathleen Fealy  8:50  

I also think though that right now because we’re in this time of the self isolation and people working from their homes and stuff. I honestly think part of itself so a lot of companies are trying to put together webinars very quickly and writing their copy, very quickly. And so I think there’s going to be a lot more examples of people missing the mark. And 


Betsy Muse  9:11  

actually, that’s a very good point because I was just noticing that some of my standard emails that I get from companies on a monthly basis where I have a regular shipment that comes in from a brand, and usually they trickle out you know your shipments. Ready, your shipment is on its way and your shipment is about there. And all of those emails came on the same day. So, I think you’re right. I think, you know, a lot of their staff is at home, they’re not you know so everyone’s so that’s a very good point. It is very good point Kathy. Let’s move on to the email, because this was one where I think I also differed with Kathy Oh my goodness. But we both received it and it’s from a really very email marketer, Val Geisler Molly did you get this one.


Molly McBeath  10:08  

Yep, I’m looking at it. Ah, how about you read it. 


Betsy Muse  10:11  

Okay. Kathy you want to read it since you the one who brought it up.


Kathleen Fealy  10:15  

Sure. Okay, I’m looking to see what the subject line was to have it on this note so the email goes, You know how much I love a metaphor. I read this one the other day and thought it was incredibly powerful. So much so that it stuck with me and not that I thought you might need to hear it too. While it might feel like we’re on the same boat during this pandemic we really aren’t, we’re actually on the same water. Some are on yachts, some are on small paddle boats, some are hanging on to parts of their boat or only have a life vest or were thrown overboard and are now swimming trying to get to a point they can hold on to the water is the same, the boats are different. That’s it. That’s the email today. Sending you love for my boat. Val


Molly McBeath  11:02  

And I didn’t get this email. I’m not on Val’s list. I’m curious I want to hear what what the disagreement is.


Kathleen Fealy  11:13  

Well my point when I brought this up, was who it was interesting to talk about is, I thought I remembered the name Val Geisler. I haven’t been getting emails on a regular basis or at least not ones that, you know, you know everybody gets so many emails in their inbox. So, there may have been more, but this one caught my attention. But it got to the end of ir and I’m like, ‘Who is Val?’ How do I know that name? And there was nothing in this email that ended with a I mean I went back and actually looked to see what the website was that sent it to me, because it wasn’t in the email. So there was nothing to give me context as to why I was getting this so even though it was a beautifully written email and I liked the metaphor. I was sort of like, okay, so I got this, or stop am I supposed to do something with it and who is this person and maybe it’s because every email I’m getting at the end of a lovely metaphor goes to, by the way, this is who I am and this is what you could do. And there’s none of that which I appreciate it. But I really I had to go back to look up to see who Val Geisler was, and I don’t think you should send emails out to people, and have them go, who is that. So, that was my point. 


Betsy Muse  12:31  

She took herself out of her element, which is, it probably did startle on you. I know Val, and so this for me was wonderful. I love the fact that she did no selling on it. Same thing that that you liked about it, Kathy, lovely metaphor. And so for me getting it from her. It didn’t take me. It didn’t startle me it didn’t know. I mean I know who Val Is she in her regular emails are really well done. But she’s just really excellent email copywriter. And so I love reading her emails. And so this one wasn’t out of the ordinary for me, but I think that’s for me that’s the difference between an audience, and a community, I feel I’m part of our community. So when I get something like this, I feel more a part of her community. And so you may feel like you’re more of her audience. 


Kathleen Fealy  13:29  

At this point, yes.


Betsy Muse  13:30  

So you’re seeing consistency and to continue hearing about email marketing, 


Kathleen Fealy  13:35  

or at least something that gives me some context so that when I do see it because I don’t read every email I get it really just depends on the day, no I know, really. But I am. Well, we’ll get to another topic some other day about trying to get through your inbox and people are trying to tell me, oh it’s so easy to keep it organized, and it’s not especially if you’re busy with clients. But I think that was my issue I liked the way it was written, I just I really need more context and, you know, and I didn’t want to have to be looking at up. I wouldn’t even like stand with you know, sending love from my boat, you know Val and then just even have had her URL there. So, if I wanted to go. Oh, that’s who she is, you know, and it would have immediately give it a little tagline that said, just something that’s on


Molly we didn’t get your opinion yet.


Molly McBeath  14:31  

I like the email but I have to admit that I kind of side with Kathy. I mean I do know I know Val Geisler’s name, but I would have to think hard about how I know her name. I know somebody else that from a long time ago whose office name is also Val, and that’s a man who does not do copywriting so I he works in education writing. And I would have. Why is he sending me that? I would, I would have been confused by that. So yeah, just a little Val. And then something about her yeah either her URL or just her title whatever title she gives herself to conversion copywriter or email copywriter or whatever it is, would have been helpful. 


Betsy Muse  15:14  



Molly McBeath  15:14  

but I do I like that. She didn’t she wasn’t trying to sell anything she’s saying I have this thought that I think might be helpful in this time, and it is a nice thought.


Betsy Muse  15:26  

It is. And the way I took it without a link or anything like that was that was the purest form of I’m not selling you anything. I’m not putting my URL in this isn’t about the name of my company this is just about me talking to people I want to share something with, but I understand the confusion. I absolutely see what you’re saying.


Kathleen Fealy  15:45  

And, in hopes that you like you said your part you feel like you’re part of her community already. I haven’t gotten there yet sure like I just moved in. I haven’t met everybody yet.


Betsy Muse  15:56  

that’s that’s an important point to make though, when you’re sending these emails out. And that’s another list segmentation thing. Then on your list, and how long they’ve been on your list. 


Molly McBeath  16:06  

I don’t know if you can segment for that really because I mean you just don’t know somebody or can you segment for somebody’s enthusiasm for you. That might be harder. You can’t know if somebody read all of your emails or they read more 


Kathleen Fealy  16:23  

You can get an open rate.


Molly McBeath  16:24  

Yeah, that’s true. I guess it


Kathleen Fealy  16:28  

depends how analytical you are and how much time you spend setting that up, if you’re like a one or two person business, there’s only so much time, that, you know, you’d love to say, I should do that. But can you


Molly McBeath  16:41  

If it were me I would have my bets and put a little pile. It doesn’t even have to be link just job title.


Betsy Muse  16:49  

Okay so this next email just to kind of contrast this to the positive message that we received from Val is from a product coach, so I’ll read the first couple of paragraphs. This is actually a very long email. “Hi Betsy, got to be honest and get this off my chest. I was laying in bed last night chatting with my husband. The baby was fast asleep in his bassinet by our bedside, and I couldn’t help but go to the dark place about the situation we are all in right now, if I’m being completely honest with you, I go to the dark place once a week or so. Most of the time I can keep my cool and focus on silver linings and optimistic thinking, but I do occasionally falter. only human.” I’m going to stop right there, because it is a long email, and it’s the tone does not get any more hopeful than that.


Molly McBeath  17:45  

It does not,


Betsy Muse  17:46  

it does not. And I honestly did not read the whole email, and when I brought this up for our discussion. Kathy even pointed something out to me that I hadn’t noticed,


Kathleen Fealy  18:00  

actually there’s two parts of it. Just to let you know. This is promoting a summit that she’s going to hold


Betsy Muse  18:09  

it did. I didn’t see that at the very end but I get


Kathleen Fealy  18:16  

from the darkness to the summit.


Betsy Muse  18:19  

It was just for me the tone was so heavy. And so dark. And while I have been on her list, a week. I signed up for. So this is the very first email. I have received from her. So imagine that sending this, and this is the very first email you’re sending to people. Now she didn’t know that necessarily, but yeah I think I would have maybe tried to weed out the people who just signed up because this is a very heavy, email, I don’t know her and while I care about her on a human level, she talks about her husband and her child and I don’t know her family. I don’t have, you know, I’m not a cold person but there just isn’t that, as we talked about before with Val that sense of community. I don’t feel that with her yet. So this email dropped completely flat with me. 


Kathleen Fealy  19:17  

I read it and I mean I did scan it I will have to say I did not really read the whole thing because quite honestly, right now, listening to the news alone has been really depressing. When I started to read this email that you sent on this like oh here we go again because I think I think she was trying to let people know if you’re feeling, anxiety, or you’re just overwhelmed, that that’s okay. 


Betsy Muse  19:40  



Kathleen Fealy  19:41  

but she would have been better in my opinion just say that because you don’t. I mean well I don’t know her at all. So, this is the first time I’ve seen her stuff, but she’s really getting very intimate as far as telling people how she’s feeling that you know she’s sort of feeling like she’s going down a dark rabbit hole with all this, and then what I was surprised about was that she goes, there’s a part of it that goes. “Anyway, I know this isn’t the most heart, or it isn’t the heartwarming life will be okay note you wanted to receive in your inbox today. I just felt like I needed to write this to you and share how I’m feeling. Betsy, I feel like we need to be honest with one another so we can band together and support each other”, and I just thought, What a weird place to put in the name of the person that you’re sending this to, it would have almost, it would flowed a little bit better, if she wouldn’t have put in the name. So, and then at the end, because at that point I got intrigued and start reading more of it. She tells about this summit. And then she says, “so that’s what I’m focusing on how about you. Will you do me a favor Betsy, please reply to this email and share one thing that’s bringing you joy.” And I just thought the personalization for her to get so private in the beginning of the email, and to say how she was struggling and she figured if you were too that might be the case and how we all had to like work together to sometimes get out of that. But I just thought, this is one of those times when I’m not sure personalization and an email is a good thing, because it just, it felt wrong.


So, it was just something that when I saw it, that was the thing that hit me is that the personalization. I don’t think was doing it wasn’t bringing the people closer into the message if anything it was sort of like having people go. Okay, I’m not in this place or, you know, I don’t know, it just didn’t ever right feel to me


Molly McBeath  21:38  

I have to point out that the first place, besides the hi Betsy at the very top, the first place that Betsy’s name, and any personalization shows up again as Kathy points out, is 16 paragraphs down, not 16 lines, 16 paragraph breaks down. That’s a long way to go before something’s addressed to you. And all that time that she spent earlier is very dark.


Betsy Muse  22:04  

Yeah, and it’s addressed, kind of in a negative way it’s making an assumption that we’re not being honest with each other. I feel like we need to be honest with one another. I’ve been on your list a week, I’ve not said one dishonest thing to you. So, for me some and I understand what she was saying is, she’s laid all this out, she is spilled her guts. To be honest with me. But by personalizing it like that, in that very awkward way in that very awkward place. That’s not what it sounds like.


Molly McBeath  22:38  

I read that line and I think I don’t feel that we need to be honest with one another because this was totally TMI. I did not want to know all this about you. This was too much. 


Kathleen Fealy  22:49  

And actually I think that’s a good point Molly because the other thing is I’m going back to for this so that’s why everybody sees me hearing the paper rustle, that’s gonna nail it, but email has rustle. But I think from a just a business standpoint. I like, I think it was nice that she wants to be very personal and as far as like trying to connect with an audience. What I think is good business advice for everybody, is when you’re writing an email, especially if it’s something that includes a lot of personal information I believe this was social posting too. You should write it and then you should set it aside. And then read it again. Later on, because obviously this was written pretty close to almost feels like she wrote that, evening when she couldn’t go to sleep because she wrote, I don’t know what triggered me maybe it’s Lady Gaga global Global Citizen broadcast. So this was sent between the Saturday night, and you either got it on Sunday or Monday. So the Sunday there was not a lot of time so you may she may not even have gone back to have had the chance to reread it, because she had re read it. She probably could have kept the sentiment, but she could have adjusted the tone so it wasn’t quite as dark. 


Betsy Muse  24:15  



Kathleen Fealy  24:15  

So I think sometimes people have to do this, I know I wrote a social media post the other day, addressing a very serious topic, but I wrote it out three times,


Molly McBeath  24:26  



Kathleen Fealy  24:26  

and then went back and tried to make it more generalized and not to the point that it diminished it, but that it would mean something to everybody that read it a little more, because when I wrote it the first time, I was very sad, and there is a dark thing, and I knew that it wasn’t the time so I deleted it just put it into a file, so I could work on it because I wanted something out there. But you sometimes need to take that extra day to breathe. 


Betsy Muse  24:54  

I think that’s an excellent point. I think anytime you’re going to pick a fight, or you’re going to get personal. I think it’s really important to take that time to make sure that what you’re saying needs to be said. 


Molly McBeath  25:07  

Yeah, fully agree. on this we’re in agreement. Mark that one down in the record book. We agreed on one thing.


Kathleen Fealy  25:15  

One thing. Hey.


Betsy Muse  25:19  

Hey. The final email we’re going to talk about is one that I have. There’s a direct to consumer brand that I’ve been taking a look at as part of content I’m creating. And y’all heard me talk enthusiastically about Beardbrand. Now I don’t have a beard and most of the people in my family don’t have beards.


Kathleen Fealy  25:39  

Nope. I was going to say the product worked really, Betsy


Betsy Muse  25:41  

It did didn’t it? As a matter of fact, no man in my family has a beard. For me to be interested in this brand is kind of not in character. And I took it as a bit of a challenge, because at first I thought, well, you know, I’m going to go through their lead gen because I’m a lead gen strategist I’m going to go through their lead gen funnel and see if I can tear it down and I couldn’t. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. I have loved every email that I’ve gotten, and I stayed on the list just because I think they do such a great job. And so I pulled out one of the emails, and I will share one day the email that hooked me. But this isn’t it. I just thought that they handled. They stayed on brand completely with how they handle have handled the current situation with, with the coronavirus and COVID-19, and the recommendations that they give, and the discounts that they’ve made to certain products that are targeted to men with beards. So I’m curious to hear what you think about this email, because I just, I I have to say at this point, I am biased toward them. So, I want to hear from two people who aren’t. And this is, this one came in March. So I want to point out and this was very early on in this. It was like March 18 


Molly McBeath  27:15  

yes, so early in the pandemic here in the States.


Kathleen Fealy  27:19  

You want to read it Betsy so people can hear what that


Betsy Muse  27:21  

The headline is “something to help you stay clean. All right, let’s be real here, we’re living in some weird times the weirdest I’ve experienced in my short time on this planet. I have no idea what’s going to happen tomorrow, let alone in the next hour, but it’s times like these that force me to focus on what I do have control over and not get overwhelmed with things outside my control. I could panic about the negatives, but instead I look at the bright side of things. It’s an opportunity to strengthen relationships, it’s an opportunity to learn a new skill. And hey, maybe it’s an opportunity to finally grow your beard, or grow your hair I hair out like you’ve always wanted. At Beardbrand we’re we’ve been putting our heads together remotely, of course, to figure out what we can do. for the CDC recommendations, washing your hands frequently with soap and water is still one of the best things you can do to keep yourself safe, how we’re going to help. We’re heavily discounting utility bar three packs. While this mess is going on. If you’ve never used these bars before they are a gentle, or a great gentle cleanser that isn’t going to dry and crack your hands like cheaper alternatives. In addition, you can use it to wash your beard, hair, body and even shave with. In the meantime, stay safe and keep on growing. Eric Bandholz founder PS. Be wary of misinformation. there are quite a few articles out there with misleading headlines, saying that the CDC recommends shaving your beard, that simply isn’t true. But keeping your beard cleaner than usual might be a good idea if you need a high quality beard wash, we happen to know where you can find an awesome one.” So I do want to point out that they do link to some of their products, this is definitely a sales email, which some people might find distasteful granted it was March 18 not April 18, so at that point we didn’t have the 10s of thousands of dead, that we have now. And number 


Kathleen Fealy  29:20  

We were still at just the 50, no more than 100 or 50 people write in a grill, I do. 


Betsy Muse  29:27  

Right. If someone’s offended that they’re selling in the email I do want to point out that was a very different time, I will. They stay on brand. And I, I just like the way they do it.


Molly McBeath  29:41  

I do to I. I love the touch that they use I love the tone. I love, love, love, love the fact that they give actual information, you know that they’re backing up the CDC saying wash frequently with soap and water and I see that there’s a link here I clicked it. I assume that goes to the CDC I don’t know that. If it does, I think that’s a nice thing to do, to provide people with bonafide information, because there’s so much misinformation out there. And I liked their PS as well I thought that was really good, that they say the CDC does not recommend shaving your beard there is no recommendation out there about that. I think that is helpful. They’re definitely providing value, as well as mentioning their own products on the side. And they did it in a, in a way that was fun. It was, I think, honest. So those are the things that I really liked about it. What do you like about this one Kathy.


Kathleen Fealy  30:41  

What I like is that I really like the way that it just flows. I like the fact that they’re talking about what the type, you know, what kind of times we’re in that this little they mentioned as you said Molly the CDC right away. And then they start to talk, you know, then they bring it into their brand and but they do it in a nice way without overselling, it’s just sort of like nice little gentle by the way here we are. But I also want to read it. My first thought was, this is a company that can afford good writing, and invests in writing. So there’s a lot of product emails I get, or emails to try to sound like this fall short because you can tell they probably didn’t have somebody on staff that’s either a marketer that knows how to write, a copywriter, or even more importantly a conversion copywriter, and so it’s just the way the whole thing flowed. I was like, they’ve invested in that part of marketing, they said, you know, some people invest in graphics, some people will invest in theater production techniques and stuff, but this is definitely. They were invested in writing as well and it really hit the mark. 


Molly McBeath  32:02  

Okay, I have one query though for you guys. There’s one thing there’s one tiny little thing that as a writer kind of bugs me, which is because otherwise I totally agree with Kathy I love the flow. I think this is really well done. The one thing that strikes me as weird is that mostly This is written from the perspective of Eric, the founder and, but then when you get to the we’re living in some weird times, I have no idea. I like to focus on what I do have control over I could panic about the negatives, I, and then it gets into the bullet points, it’s an opportunity to strengthen relationships. It’s an opportunity to learn a new skill. And hey, maybe it’s an opportunity to finally grow your beard, or grow your hair out like you’ve always want. So all of a sudden it flips, to the reader, and for me that was a little jarring. I don’t know if I’m the only if that’s the editor in me that says,


Kathleen Fealy  32:58  

I think that’s the editor, that didn’t bother me because I think he was starting with the personal, but then he was going toward trying to bring it directly to what his audience needed, wanted or was concerned about. So that shouldn’t bother me as much. 


Betsy Muse  33:14  

Yeah, I think when you’re talking about what you’re going through especially because the way I’m experiencing this pandemic is different than the way my audience is experiencing the pandemic and maybe that’s what he’s trying to do. But no, I do get that because I also, I believe in saying you you you more than I, I, And that is a lot I didn’t count it there’s a lot. I’m okay with it for this email. I think it’s because the ending he he nails it in the end you know so


Molly McBeath  33:48  

he did stick the landing.


Betsy Muse  33:49  

Thank you. There we go.


Molly McBeath  33:53  

I mean, If I had been the editor of this email I would have probably changed started adding in, we or our into that I could panic about the negatives, so that there was an opportunity to kind of set up the idea that the bullets are going to be about you, not about me, 


Betsy Muse  34:10  

so it transitions,


Molly McBeath  34:11  

right there, That’s what I would have done.


Betsy Muse  34:13  

I love it because we’ve gone from being very general and some of the other emails, and when you get an email that is so good, you can get nitpicky perfecting it it’s like okay well I can’t pick on anything else, but I love that I would, I love that. I think that that’s excellent advice, especially for those who are following us who want to learn how to write better, emails, 


Kathleen Fealy  34:33  

and in all fairness, everyone’s email can be improved, like, I don’t think any of us have ever sent out anything, whether it was an email, landing page a sales page or something that after we put it out. We were like, We could just tweak this a little bit, or change this or that. So, for a while we’re saying what we would like to have seen or done. I think it’s important for everyone listening to realize that, all of us, whenever we’ve looked at even at each other’s we’re like you know if you just had changed this a little.


Molly McBeath  35:03  

I will say, as an as an editor, who’s been a part of an editing group, this entire time that had been an editor that we all say the same thing which is that every editor recognizes that everybody needs and editor, including the editor. You need another perspective,


Betsy Muse  35:18  

That’s why we have people look at our own work.


Kathleen Fealy  35:21  

We should point that out because I don’t want people saying, Oh, it’s very easy for them to say something about this but it really we say about ourselves too when we read our own 


Molly McBeath  35:29  



Betsy Muse  35:30  

right, we want we don’t want to take away from the fact that these are people who are in the trenches doing the work. And that’s what’s important, 


Kathleen Fealy  35:37  

and they put it out there, they get it and just say oh I should do this and I’ll never, you know, and then there’s like, Oh it’s not quite right it’s not quite right. They took a chance when they put it out there. And some of the landing stick and some of them, they falter, but they still did it, which you know it’s exactly what’s supposed to happen. 


Betsy Muse  35:54  

Right. So get out there and write your emails. We’ll tear ’em down for you, no. But no if this helps you, that’s great but don’t let it prevent you from turning your audience into a community, write them often enough so that they look forward to receiving your emails, is there anything else we need to add about these emails are we ready to sign off for the day.


Molly McBeath  36:15  

I’m good because I don’t want to go down the dark rabbit hole. Yeah, I want to really go. I feel for it because I know what that feels like. But I don’t want to go there. Yeah, in my inbox, I


Betsy Muse  36:25  

think, a really good sample, and I love that we were all three of us received at least some of these emails and we were able to bring them up before we even decided to talk about them so it’s fun hearing other people’s perspectives,


Molly McBeath  36:39  

I agree. 


Kathleen Fealy  36:40  



Betsy Muse  36:41  

Well thank you ladies, and thank you all for listening in. 


Molly McBeath  36:44  

Thank you.


Kathleen Fealy  36:45  



Betsy Muse  36:46  

See you next time.


Unknown Speaker  36:52  

This has been Yes But However, I’m Kathy Fealy with my cohosts Betsy Muse and Molly Macbeth. This episode was written edited and produced by the three of us. Our theme music is tourist in Punta Cana, which is available through Audio Hero. The show’s website where we post show notes transcripts and more information about us, can be found at yes but however podcast dot com. You can contact us through the website, or email us at talkers at yes but however podcast.com. Thanks for listening.



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This episode is sponsored by our businesses – McBeath Communications, KF Multimedia, and Rocket Fuel Strategy. We are quite literally putting our “money” where our mouths are!

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